God why dontcha just come on down or appear in the sky and just do a couple miracles for us…or just say, “See, I’m still around?”
That’s a question that gets posed alot I notice and I’ve seen it a few times in recent commentary Deke has been having with folks here and elsewhere on the web. I’ll say this: God appearing and announcing himself is one of the worst ideas I can think of and God is smart enough to know that which is why he doesn’t do it.
Huh? you ask…it would be GREAT, you say, if he would just settle things.
No it wouldn’t and if you break it down you’ll see why.
Okay, so God appears in the sky, for example, and announces himself and maybe reiterates his chief rules of behavior and tells us we need to believe in him.
What happens then?
First, the believers who accept it is God freak out with joy and the more extreme of them would then be even more judgmental of, crueler to and abusive of people who didn’t toe God’s line.
Second, there will be believers who will say, “God didn’t say he was going to do THIS” and will proclaim this to be a trick of Satan and perhaps the beginning of the END DAYS!
Third, there will be believers who might suspect it probably WAS God, but then realize that God still didn’t answer every possible permutation of every one of his rules in context with real life and they will realize they are still scewed and still have to interpret stuff.
Fourth, we will have people who will say “Aliens are trying to trick us into thinkgin they are gods and will use our ignorance to enslave us!”
Fifth, folks who don’t belong to Christianity and especially if they are in nations that are often trampled on, will say, “This is some trick of America or someone else. Projections in the sky and drugs in our water. This is a lie! That was not the almighty we believe in!”
Sixth, we will have many folks who will simply assume they just had a mental breakdown and will start doubting that anything they see anymore is real.
Do ya want me to keep goin’?
The point is that the only way God could appear and make it CLEAR he was God would be to imprint our brains with a big “YOU CAN’T IGNORE THIS AND YOU MUST BELIEVE ME” message. And isn’t that against the idea of free will? Woudn’t he be then forcing a script on us? The only way to appear and make it work would be to turn us all into robots that hear and obey. Our humanity would need to be stripped away.
Or if we are left with our humanity, intellect and free will, we have to judge what we just saw inthe sky and you end up back at thos six things I just talked about plus all the others I didn’t consider.
Interesting post
1 through 6…………..I pretty much thought that was happening already. š
Yeah, except ratcheted up to the Nth degree…chaos…disorder…panic…dogs living with cats…
Anyway, I have some follow-on thoughts to Miz Pink’s post, but no time to post them now…be back later…
By the way Im curious, who is Mz pink?
She’s a friend (at least that’s what I keep telling Mrs. Blue…nudge, nudge wink, wink…). Seriously, though, she’s just my even-more-anonymity-conscious sidekick here:
For a little more about her:
In her own words from many months back when I turned the site over to her for a week:
http://holyhell.wordpress.com/2008/06/09/who-am-i-by-miz-pink/
and my own little synopsis from the “about” pages for this blog:
http://holyhell.wordpress.com/who-is-deacon-blue/cast-of-characters/
I am woman, hear me roar
In numbers too big to ignore
And I know too much to go back an’ pretend
’cause I’ve heard it all before
And I’ve been down there on the floor
No one’s ever gonna keep me down again
Props to Helly Reddy for the above.
Anyhoo, I’m just a loud-mouthed lady with a love of pink. A liberal who loves NASCAR. One part hippie, one part punk and one part June Cleaver. Heck raiser and breastfeeder. And I can out-belch any man alive.
And no despite what many people have assumed I am not Deke’s wife. That would be Mrs. Blue.
Mz Pink, great blog entry. I agree with you 99%. But let me use the remaining one percent to expand a bit on one thing you said.
“Iāll say this: God appearing and announcing himself is one of the worst ideas I can think of and God is smart enough to know that which is why he doesnāt do it.” Mz Pink.
I agree with you this much. It’s the worse thing for us, for all the reasons you’ve mentioned, but (there’s always that ‘but’ to spoil total agreement) I feel that God is always appearing and announcing himself, and he’s not loath to do so. It’s just that we don’t recognize him, or believe that it’s him, when he does, or we attribute his showing up as something, or someone, other than God.
God’s so eager for us to believe in him that he sent his only begotten son as an envoy. And what did some of us do? We said he had a devil, refused to believe him, whipped him mercilessly and finally killed him, nailing him to a cross as a felon–a most ignominious death.
God is everything we see, and everything we don’t see. We need to update our understanding of his appearance. You may not think of him in this way, but many still see him as Michaelangelo depicted him: stern, wise, and bearded.
And if we really wish to see him, since he is as Jesus described him, a spirit, we’ll have to become more like him, spiritual:
“Blessed are the pure in heart [spiritual]: for they shall see God [Spirit].”
Hi Miz Pink, I hope you and family are well.
I think that IF there was a God He would want show himself.
Most of Europe and much of Asia/India/Malaysia/Japan is at the very least agnostic, or believes in a non Christian God. Non-belief in America is growingā¦not shrinking. Science is breathing down the neck of the Bible, disproving most of the old mythsā¦not because they are trying to do that, but because they are finding natural truths and facts that impact the stories and show them to be untrue.
There is no way to prove Godās existence and eventually more people will disbelieve than believe. The only defense that Christians have for their side is the Bible; and that book is losing believability and thence authority.
The earth has almost 7 billion people now. 2.1+- billion Christians, 1.3+- Muslims, 6 to 10 million Jews. Non believers are the third largest group in the roundup of believers–non-believersā¦
The Catholic Church and mainline Protestants have admitted that the scientists are right about evolution (the church always loses fights with science), there was no flood, etc. A lot of scholars, most of which know much more about the Bible–and religion in general, than the evangelical fundamentalists, have been saying for centuries that most of the old stories are myths and allegorical; meant to teach a moral thing, not to be taken literally.
So, if God really exists, I think He would/should be kinda worried that belief in Him is in serious decline and maybe He ought to do something about it.
If you seriously contemplate the problem of growing disbelief in a deity you canāt help but wonder why, if God is real, He didnāt cause a better book to be written about Him, why He allowed so many mistakes in the book, why He set up such a stupid script for our time here on earth, why prayer is never answered by Him. You wonder about the billions of people on earth who starve daily, will die in desperately horrible ways, and in general would have been better off never having been born. You realize that being a God means being Omniscientā¦He knows all things at all timesā¦but He lets the preordained script play outā¦to our dismay.
If God is real He needs to do some real serious PR work on His image, and its going to take more proofs than He has EVER shown to date.
twom
TWOM, we’ve had such a long, previous conversation that I’m reluctant to respond, but here goes. God is showing Herself, but you’ve been seeing Her for so long that you no longer appreciate that which you see.
It’s like that majestic mountain that fill tourists with such awe, but hardly move the locals who have seen it for the thousandth time.
“So, if God really exists, I think He would/should be kinda worried that belief in Him is in serious decline and maybe He ought to do something about it.”
Here’s the Truth: You cannot not believe in God. I’ll explain why, later.
God doesn’t care if you believe in Him. He doesn’t even care if you worship Him or not. I know: the Bible told you so. But the Bible came through humans, and their belief systems– systems that were prevalent at the time they received their messages. Humans are imperfect messengers of God, and therefore not always reliable.
The Word of God is indeed inerrant, but man is not. God’s Word, God’s Message is always received through an imperfect filter, whether it comes through you, me, or Moses.
“So, if God really exists, I think He would/should be kinda worried that belief in Him is in serious decline and maybe He ought to do something about it.”
You have a serious misunderstanding of the nature of God. God is not concerned whether man believes in Him or not. He is after all God the Omnipotent One, God the Omniscient One, and God the Omnipresent One.
That alone assures that His Will will eventually be done, that His Intent will someday match Outcome. But in the meantime, you have freewill and you get to have it anyway you choose. One day, you will, of your own accord, choose God.
I’ll make you a bet: Within the next 30 years (I don’t know if either one of us will still be alive to collect) but you will see a resurgence in our belief in God, but it won’t be a belief, but a knowledge of God. A new understanding of God is on the horizon.
Something is stirring right now of an incalculable magnitude, the effect of which will gradually be felt. You may live to witness it, depending on your age now.
“[W]hy prayer is never answered by Him.”
You’re right about one thing: God doesn’t answer prayers. There’s no need to. Humans seek answers because of a question of lack, or a sense of something missing, or something needed or wanted. I don’t pray for anything. I merely accept what I have been given, and all that God has is mine.
Why, then, would I ever pray for anything as though I’m in need, in a state of lack, or I’m deprived in some way? Those who pray in that fashion, most often than not, come up short. Why? They’re asking God to give them that which they already have.
Redundant, wouldn’t you say?
A prayer should rarely be a asking, but an accepting, a receiving. I say rarely, because most don’t know how to ask in a way that makes the asking unnecessary. We humans are good at asking, but not so good at accepting.
“You wonder about the billions of people on earth who starve daily, will die in desperately horrible ways, and in general would have been better off never having been born. You realize that being a God means being Omniscientā¦He knows all things at all timesā¦but He lets the preordained script play outā¦to our dismay.”
I’m not sure about the numbers you cited, but I do get your message, so I won’t quibble. And I’ll answer you in this way: God will do something about the conditions you’ve referenced when we do something about them.
For now, we collectively show very little concern about starving people, and yet we expect God to be more caring that we. God is as caring as we are caring–you, me, and the rest of humanity. No more and no less.
Those who care are doing something. Those who don’t, aren’t. We need more people to care and the conditions that neither you nor I care for would cease.
Life is more important than you know, even for those who, as you put it, live and die in “desperately horrible ways, and in general would have been better off never having been born.”
Do you actually believe that those who were born into this abject poverty didn’t know the circumstances under which they would live and die? Do you really think that we don’t have choices before and after birth?
Of course you believe we don’t. You think that this is our one and only shot at the brass ring of life. And yet you condemn God for tolerating earthly conditions that we collectively could do something about if we chose to. Do you doubt that? That we could do something about it?
“He lets the preordained script play outā¦to our dismay.”
There’s no “preordained script” as you understand it. But what is preordained, not because anyone will be forced, is the return to the Godhead from whence we came. None will be lost. We came from Spirit and to spirit we shall return. We came from the absolute and to the absolute we shall return. We came from the sublime and to the sublime we shall return, and richer for it, more rich had we stayed Home and avoided all of life’s pain, and misery as we too often perceive our divine existence in this realm.
You’re living in a blessed state and don’t know it. It will all come clear in some future here and now. For now, you’re in a state of “dismay.” Later you will exult in your joy, your bliss, as a result of your earthly existence.
However, you don’t have to die to experience bliss (nirvana): I can experience it now, anytime I choose. I don’t choose it often, because the joy is too great, too hard to bear in human form. The full glory of it will require what you call death, for it brings all to All–a state you’d find difficult to achieve, although it is achievable without dying.
Here’s what I’ve said on many occasions. There is no God and you, there’s only God. There’s no you and me, there’s only us. We’re All One. There’s only One of Us here. And that One is God.
The irony: You’re looking for God and not realizing: That for which you search is You. You see: as long as you believe in yourself you believe in God. Now isn’t that the irony of ironies.
“If God is real He needs to do some real serious PR work on His image, and its going to take more proofs than He has EVER shown to date.”
thom
I’ll tell Him you said so. I’m sure He’ll be amused.
Hi Lightworker, thank you for your patience.
After being sick for almost a week I got terribly behind in my work and have been trying to catch up. Still not quite there, but am not so rushed now.
Like anything you are exposed to on a daily basis you grow bored. I still stand in awe of many things I see here on earth though; the physical beauty of many landscapes, the delicate beauty of flowers and plants, the sweet taste of ripe melons on a summer evening, the enticing beautiful women who populate our earthā¦I look for these things and go slow and enjoy as much as possible. I am one who stops to smell the roses. Every spring and summer I am out with my camera taking photos of new bloomsā¦even though I have photographed them a hundred times before.
Well if God does exist he sure is shy. Now that you mention it I suppose God (if he exists) really doesnāt care if we believe he is real except the sermons in church sure want you to bow to Him and kiss butt. We should know that He doesnāt care if we believe or not by the example He sets by totally ignoring the misery of millions, maybe billions, of His children. One especially poignant photo I have seen lately shows a African (maybe 2 or 3 years old) child alone in an expanse of sand, seated on the ground and bowed over with a Buzzard waiting in the backgroundā¦for the child to die.
You write:
āThe Word of God is indeed inerrant, but man is not. Godās Word, Godās Message is always received through an imperfect filter, whether it comes through you, me, or Moses.ā
You would expect that He could furnish an inerrant book for His believers to follow, not one that is riddled with mistakes, false stories, blunders, and many examples of Godly cruelty.
You write:
āIāll make you a bet: Within the next 30 years (I donāt know if either one of us will still be alive to collect) but you will see a resurgence in our belief in God, but it wonāt be a belief, but a knowledge of God. A new understanding of God is on the horizon.ā
Iāll be pushing 95 by that time, but Iāll keep my eye out for what you expect to happen. So what are you expectingā¦is God going to show himself because so many people are losing faith?
You write:
āYouāre right about one thing: God doesnāt answer prayers. Thereās no need to. Humans seek answers because of a question of lack, or a sense of something missing, or something needed or wanted. I donāt pray for anything. I merely accept what I have been given, and all that God has is mine.ā
Iāve been trying to tell this to Christians for forty yearsā¦I have never heard of a prayer being unequivocally answered in a manner that could not have been coincidence. But, we know that the Bible says in no uncertain terms that prayer will be answeredā¦part of the problem that God has with His book.
You write:
āIām not sure about the numbers you cited, but I do get your message, so I wonāt quibble. And Iāll answer you in this way: God will do something about the conditions youāve referenced when we do something about them.ā
Sorry, that was a typo on my partāshould have been millions of course. People in this country are among the most generous humans on earth. From what I hear we give more aid and money than any other country. If I had the power and wherewithal I would certainly do everything in my power to help these people. However I had a family to support and all I could/can do is donate. But, when the people in power in the charities and distribution line are crooked and divert the aid to armies and friendsā¦what can you really do? I have gone the route of letter writing to politicians and still wonder what effect, if any, it ever had.
You write:
āThereās no āpreordained scriptā as you understand it. But what is preordained, not because anyone will be forced, is the return to the Godhead from whence we cameā¦ā
The pre-ordained script I refer to is the story that we humans have been told by the church from about 400-500 CE onward. Adam sinned, therefore we all are sinful, but Jesus redeemed our sin by dying on the cross, all we have to do is confess our sinful nature and accept Jesus as our savior, we are all waiting on the war of Megiddo and thence the second coming of Jesus, every one saved by Jesus either goes to heaven or lives on a renewed earth. That script, with minor variations from denomination to denomination has been drilled into us for 1500 years.
Everything about our life is pre-ordainedā¦not minor details, but the giant picture is as described above. That to me is a script and although we may have free will in very minor things, our lives are still plotted out for us in a large way.
You write:
āYouāre living in a blessed state and donāt know itā¦ā
I am aware that as a citizen of my country I enjoy tremendous advantages over many other inhabitants of earth, and for that I am very thankful. I can also say that my day to day life is pretty good and I am mostly a happy camper, but in the back of my mind I worry about many people on this ball of dirt, rock, and water.
You write:
āIāll tell Him you said so. Iām sure Heāll be amused.”
Iād appreciate itā¦:-)
twom
Now it’s my turn to apologize for a late response.
“Like anything you are exposed to on a daily basis you grow bored. I still stand in awe of many things I see here on earth though; the physical beauty of many landscapes, the delicate beauty of flowers and plants, the sweet taste of ripe melons on a summer evening, the enticing beautiful women who populate our earthā¦I look for these things and go slow and enjoy as much as possible.”
You, TWOM, are God in action. The things you mentioned have no meaning. Landscapes don’t have physical beauty, delicate flowers and plants aren’t beautiful, ripe melons on a summer evening aren’t sweet tasting, and women on earth aren’t beautiful.
It’s all in the eye of the beholder, and the preference of your taste buds. You gave the things you mentioned meaning. You determined what is awesome and what is not. You determined what is beautiful and delicate and what is not, what is sweet tasting and what is not, and which women are beautiful and which are not.
I can find many other people who would disagree with you on every assessment you made: which landscape is beautiful, which flower and plant is delicate and beautiful, which melon is sweet and tasty, and which women are beautiful.
You see: we’re not all in agreement. That’s because the things you mentioned are not inherently desirable, or beautiful, or what have you. We’re making it all up. If they were inherently desirable and beautiful, they would be clearly seen as such, and there would be consensus. Consensus does not exist. Not universal consensus.
You’re making it up. I’m making it up. We’re all making it up. And I agree there’s much beauty in our world, but I’m also aware that I’m putting it there–that beauty exists inside of me, and never in the objects that seem to possess it.
“We should know that He doesn’t care if we believe or not by the example He sets by totally ignoring the misery of millions, maybe billions, of His children. One especially poignant photo I have seen lately shows a African (maybe 2 or 3 years old) child alone in an expanse of sand, seated on the ground and bowed over with a Buzzard waiting in the backgroundā¦for the child to die.”
With all kindness, my friend, did you read my previous answer on this subject. God only cares to the extent that we care, to the extent that we all care. You’re right in this regard: God has neglected them.
You continue to rail against God (the God Source) for his neglect, but you are God. We are God. We all have neglected the children of this world. If there are children starving, we don’t have to look farther than our mirror. We are the ones (collectively) that have ignored the hungry, sick, and dying children of this world.
We are the ones who have ignored the misery of millions of His children. We are the Gods that have done that. And that’s our shame. We have more than enough (the God Source has assured that), yet we don’t always (in sufficient numbers) share that plentitude with others.
“You would expect that He could furnish an inerrant book for His believers to follow, not one that is riddled with mistakes, false stories, blunders, and many examples of Godly cruelty.”
No such book may be written. At this stage of our spiritual development we cannot reflect the Almighty’s thoughts sufficiently to call those words inerrant. The fault does not lie with God but with us. And since we’re Gods, our personal truths become as valid (for us, at least) as any other truth. Therefore Truth itself (in a relative world) is not an absolute, but changes as we change. Today’s truth will of necessity be revised tomorrow. Just as our scientists will forever tweak their truths as they learn more about what is so–and believe me there’s always more to learn that will require a revision of yesterday’s truths, yesterday’s scientific certainties, and yesterday’s scientific principles.
Truth is inexhaustible.
What you see as mistakes, false stories and blunders are not being seen with an interior eye. An interior eye would harmonize that which you’re seeing. I’ve covered this point sufficiently in a previous conversation. Check out Emanuel Swedenborg on this subject.
If you’d like God’s most recent views (purported to be God, that is, because if I flatly make the claim, you’ll resist it), then check out the link I’ve already provided to Sherry Sword’s site (http://www.sherrysword.com), and read Neale Donald Walsh’s Conversations with God books. Start with volume one (http://www.amazon.com/Conversations-God-Uncommon-Dialogue-Book/dp/0399142789/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252666619&sr=1-1) as it sets the stage for the following books. And if you don’t wish to purchase them, your public library, more than likely, will have volume one in the series.
Let me briefly share one of my experiences with book one. As I was reading, I came across concepts that perplexed. I asked God for clarification. I received the answer in three ways: I heard the answer, or I saw the answer, or I’d know the answer and would have to find words to articulate it.
From the information I received, I could have written my own Conversation with God book. Now the author, Walsch, would be the first to tell you that his books are not the infallible word of God. God’s words are being received through an imperfect filter, and cannot be claimed to be the unbiased words of God. Yet, there’s sufficient information in the several books to shed amazing light on our human history, and our current world view.
Give the first book of the series a try. The book will challenge, and give you another perspective on the Bible, and our day-to-day existence. (You may decide to attempt to debunk it.) Further, it gives God’s view on many of the issues that are currently defining our place in history, as well as God’s reason for creating this world in the first place.
“I’ll be pushing 95 by that time, but I’ll keep my eye out for what you expect to happen. So what are you expectingā¦is God going to show himself because so many people are losing faith?”
God is always showing Himself. She’s not hiding. She’s always in plain sight. Take a look in the mirror, you will see one aspect of the God that you are. I say one aspect, because God is composed of many aspects, and can’t be restricted to one.
People are not losing faith. They’re shifting their view–from Yesterday’s God to Tomorrow’s God. The mistake that we make about God is that He’s static. He’s not. But He is a constant. He’s constantly changing.
What you will see is this shift.
“I’ve been trying to tell this to Christians for forty yearsā¦I have never heard of a prayer being unequivocally answered in a manner that could not have been coincidence. But, we know that the Bible says in no uncertain terms that prayer will be answeredā¦part of the problem that God has with His book.”
People pray, and prayers are answered. But they’re not answered because of a perceived need, want, desire, hope, or what have you. They’re answered because all prayers are answered. God can’t say, No. If prayers don’t seem to be answered, it’s because the sponsoring thought, the thought behind the thought (behind the prayer [the stronger belief]) becomes the one that is manifested.
Over the years, I’ve had many prayers answered, and I have been healed as a result of prayers on many occasions. I’ve touched on that as well in a post or two. One of them came while in conversation with God.
Prayers would more readily be answered were we more spiritual, and understood that we’re lacking nothing. We fail to ask in the name of the Christ, in the name of Truth. Only the Son can go in unto the Father. In other words, only that which is spiritual (pure) can enter the courts of Spirit. When our thoughts (spiritually imbued) touch the thoughts of God (Spirit), we can ask for what we will, and it shall be given us.
“But, when the people in power in the charities and distribution line are crooked and divert the aid to armies and friendsā¦what can you really do? I have gone the route of letter writing to politicians and still wonder what effect, if any, it ever had.”
For your efforts, I’m grateful. But my statement still stands: We can end abject poverty and hunger in a year if we had the collective resolve, and will to do so. Unfortunately, we don’t have that resolve. And when I say, WE, I mean we, All of Us, all cooperating and collaborating in this effort to eradicate hunger–not half-heartedly, but with full commitment.
“Adam sinned, therefore we all are sinful, but Jesus redeemed our sin by dying on the cross, all we have to do is confess our sinful nature and accept Jesus as our savior, we are all waiting on the war of Megiddo and thence the second coming of Jesus, every one saved by Jesus either goes to heaven or lives on a renewed earth. That script, with minor variations from denomination to denomination has been drilled into us for 1500 years.”
Do you believe this script? And if you don’t, why do you care what others believe? I don’t care what others believe. They may believe what they choose. That’s fine by me. I have no desire to convert, to indoctrinate, to condemn or to punish.
And here’s a truth that’s hard for many to accept: And neither does God care.
In some writings, Adam and Eve are not seen as committing the first sin, but the first blessing. And in other writings the serpent is not seen as the evil one, but the one that aided mankind. And in yet other accounts the Lord God–the one that figures strongly in the second chapter of Genesis–is not seen as the good guy at all.
There will be a second coming of the Christ, the Truth of God. But it won’t be in a manner in which we expect, just as the Christ didn’t come in a manner that was generally expected the first time around. Here’s the irony: The Christ is forever with us, and predated Jesus. At times, Jesus spoke of himself (his human selfhood), and at other times he spoke of that which he manifested, the Christ.
Frankly, you’re not in need of salvation in the strictest sense. What you’re in need of, indeed the entire world is in need of, is to be saved from a belief of separation, the illusion that you and God, and you and everyone else are separate and apart. You are not. We are not. In that Jesus demonstrated the Christ (the Truth of us) and his oneness with God, he became the savior of humankind.
We all go to heaven. There’s no other place to go. We all came from there and to there we shall all return. I know my statements depart from the customary teachings of the church. I know some of my reflections on salvation differ from that of the church. I’m not religious. I’m spiritual. Most of all, I’m a mystic (but not in an occult sense) and one of the protectors of humankind. There are others.
Jesus’ role and importance to humankind cannot be appreciated enough. He was the way shower. His mission was to show us the way back to the Godhead (the Source of All). His mission was to dispel the illusions under which mankind struggled, death being chief among them. There is no death. There’s only life. There are no limitations. We created them. We can turn water to wine. Still the winds and calm the waves. We can feed the five thousand, heal the sick, and raise the dead.
But, first, the gospel must be preached. And what is that good news: The Kingdom of God is nigh. The Kingdom of Spirit is near, always near, for it surrounds us, permeates us, and has full dominion over the physical and material universe, if man would only accept that one truth. But to access the power of Spirit, man must first become more spiritual. Paul called the opposite of spirituality, carnality, or the carnal mind. And he had much to say about it, but a great deal of it has been misinterpreted.
Paul states the following:
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God [Spirit]: for it is not subject to the law of God [Spirit], neither indeed can be.
TWOM, I believe that you truly wish to believe, and in many ways you remind me of Paul, not that you have persecuted the church, but that you have set out to debunk the very book upon which Christians draw their strength and guidance.
You are relentless in your efforts. And I believe that were your eyes opened to the reality of God and His Christ, you would be one staunch supporter of the very book you now persecute.
Therefore, I will pray that God opens your eyes to His spiritual universe and to His spiritual reality. I can’t assure you that my prayers will yield fruit, but know that they carry quite a punch.
Now, if you would that I not do this, you have only to ask. I don’t wish to intrude upon your world as you have conceived and constructed it. Off-planet entities are also loath to interfere with our progress or lack thereof, but are content to gently guide us into making universal decisions that will hasten our spiritual evolution.
“‘Youāre living in a blessed state and donāt know itā¦'”
“I am aware that as a citizen of my country I enjoy tremendous advantages over many other inhabitants of earth, and for that I am very thankful. I can also say that my day to day life is pretty good and I am mostly a happy camper, but in the back of my mind I worry about many people on this ball of dirt, rock, and water.”
Living in this country is not the blessing of which I refer. That you live at all in the world relativity is the blessing. You will come to understand this after you transition from this life to the next.
You write:
āIāll tell Him you said so. Iām sure Heāll be amused.ā
“Iād appreciate itā¦:-)”
twom
You’re welcome.
And my apologies, Light Worker, that your comment didn’t post right away. The spam filter decided that there were enough links in there to put you in my spam queue, so I had to manually approve your comment.
Hi Lightworker,
Iāve taken a long time to answer your last post because I donāt quite know what to say. The stuff you are writing is kind of like a book I read almost 4 decades agoā¦Jonathan Livingston Seagull.
It was full of āYou can do anything you put your mind to,ā kindaā like the self help mantraā¦āthe power of positive thinking.ā Both of the above slogans can be reinterpreted toā¦āyou are God and you can do anything you want if you think and act right.ā
I can only reply to this by saying I am not a God, you are not a God, God does not exist either in the sense I think you are talking about, or in the sense the religionists are talking about. I can prove I am not a God; as to the othersā¦not so much.
You write:
āI can find many other people who would disagree with you on every assessment you made: which landscape is beautiful, which flower and plant is delicate and beautiful, which melon is sweet and tasty, and which women are beautiful.ā
Well, you may be able to do that, but Iāll bet you I can find 99 out of 100 who will agree with me and my choices.
You write:
āYou see: weāre not all in agreement. Thatās because the things you mentioned are not inherently desirable, or beautiful, or what have you. Weāre making it all up. If they were inherently desirable and beautiful, they would be clearly seen as such, and there would be consensus. Consensus does not exist. Not universal consensus.ā
Iām sorry Lightworker, but I disagree with your assessment of lots of things here. There are a tremendous number of beautiful things in this world and of course there will be some who donāt agree, but almost all will in most things. I of course donāt know the deeper meanings of this, or even if there is a deeper meaning, but most people in this world can agree on beauty in just about anythingā¦many studies have been done on this, but donāt ask me to list them as it is stuff I have read in passing and felt no need to keep track of.
You write:
āYouāre making it up. Iām making it up. Weāre all making it up. And I agree thereās much beauty in our world, but Iām also aware that Iām putting it thereāthat beauty exists inside of me, and never in the objects that seem to possess it.ā
Deep disagreement here. Take a thousand people and let me show them a beautiful baby, a beautiful woman, a handsome man, a red Ferrari, serve them that sweet melon on a soft summer evening, or any number of other things and I believe I can get almost 100% agreement on most everything I would presentā¦and they wonāt be telling me that there is no inherent beauty there. I donāt need any one to tell me what beauty is, I can recognize and appreciate it with no prompting, and it IS out there. By the way I donāt need universal consensus.
You write:
āWe are the ones who have ignored the misery of millions of His children. We are the Gods that have done that. And thatās our shame. We have more than enough (the God Source has assured that), yet we donāt always (in sufficient numbers) share that plentitude with others.ā
All of this can be boiled down to the fact that politicians, military generals, bureaucracy, etc. have made any kind of real help to millions (probably more) near impossible. Yes more should be done; but how I ask? If in fact I were a God then there would be no problemā¦anywhere.
I say:
āYou would expect that He could furnish an inerrant book for His believers to follow, not one that is riddled with mistakes, false stories, blunders, and many examples of Godly cruelty.ā
You reply:
āNo such book may be written. At this stage of our spiritual development we cannot reflect the Almightyās thoughts sufficiently to call those words inerrant. The fault does not lie with God but with us. And since weāre Gods, our personal truths become as valid (for us, at least) as any other truth. Therefore Truth itself (in a relative world) is not an absolute, but changes as we change.ā
Again I disagree (gee, who would have thought :-)), If there were a God He would not have written the lousy book that is attributed to Him. The Bible is nothing but the writings of a band of goat herders; it has no signs of an omniscient, omnipotent spiritual being behind it. It is a product of its times and mirrors the level of human development existing when it was written.
We can define and expect to find absolute truth in many things. I can look at and feel a piece of steel, measure its weight, length, width, etc. and from that extrapolate (with the proper training of course) a set of specifications for the use of this metal in certain engineering projectsā¦and there is absolute proof in all of this. We know as an absolute truth that space has a vacuum and a certain temperature and other attributes that we can count on when planning a space ship, or trip into space. All of the physical sciences have absolute truths, most of which have been found out and utilized in one way or another in the exploration of the field.
These are, of course, absolute truths in our universeā¦any other one…who knows?
Of course many people think there are absolute truths in religion, and some think not. There may be some truths there, but there are many untruths as well. Through science we know there was never a time when the whole earth was flooded. Using the widely accepted dates from religious data we can know there was never an Adam and Eve as portrayed in the Bible, neither was there a Tower of Babel scenario, or an Exodus with over a million Jews wandering the desert for 40 years and the crossing of the Red (or reed) Sea and the associated miracles in the book. There are many, many things that fallout from just the loss of the few things mentioned above.
Regarding the book you recommended: Neale Donald Walshās Conversations with God books.
I will look for it/them at the library as my book budget for this year is shot.
Are you a member or follower of the New Church?
You write:
āPeople are not losing faith. Theyāre shifting their viewāfrom Yesterdayās God to Tomorrowās God. The mistake that we make about God is that Heās static. Heās not. But He is a constant. Heās constantly changing.ā
The Bible and Jesus say God is never changing. What I think is changing a lot now-a-days is interpretation, because of the churches perception that science is blowing away many of the foundations of faith. If science comes up to religion and says āsuch and such in your Bible is not true and we can prove itā, religion has to defend its turf or lose face, credibility, and authority. Many things that science says about religion cannot be refuted. Whenever science and religion are in disagreementā¦it seems science wins, so the church subtly changes to keep up. Itās been going on for centuries.
You write:
āPeople pray, and prayers are answered. But theyāre not answered because of a perceived need, want, desire, hope, or what have you. Theyāre answered because all prayers are answeredā¦ā
The prayers of amputees are never answered.
You write:
āOnly the Son can go in unto the Father.ā
Sorry I just have to mention thisā¦
The phrase āgo in untoā is used in the Bible to mean fornicating or entering the woman/man sexually.
You write:
āBut, first, the gospel must be preached. And what is that good news: The Kingdom of God is nigh. The Kingdom of Spirit is near, always near, for it surrounds us, permeates us, and has full dominion over the physical and material universeā¦ā
āThe Kingdom of God is nearā thatās exactly what Jesus himself was preaching at the end and look…here we are 2,000 years laterā¦still waiting. I give up waiting, I think the whole thing is bogus.
You write:
āDo you believe this script? And if you donāt, why do you care what others believe? I donāt care what others believe. They may believe what they choose. Thatās fine by me. I have no desire to convert, to indoctrinate, to condemn or to punish.ā
I really donāt care in most ways, but there are some things in some peopleās interpretation of Scripture that are very disturbing. A large number of evangelicals want Armageddon to come soon, a small percentage, Iāve heard, are actively promoting/facilitating what they call the End Times. Some are actively promoting replacing secular government with fundamentalist church rule. Check out this link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-wilson/palin-pastors-re-educatio_b_283230.html. Basically I think a very large portion of Christians are seriously lacking a sense of whatās rightā¦to put it politely. They need to appreciate the real history of āThe Church.ā and how it treats and governs people
You write:
āJesusā role and importance to humankind cannot be appreciated enough. He was the way shower. His mission was to show us the way back to the Godheadā¦ā
Well humans were living all over the earth for about 200,000 years or so before God choose to show himself to some goat herders around 2000 to 1500 BCE. The literal millions and millions of other inhabitants of earth were left out because Godā¦I guessā¦was shy or something. The Jewish line of people never lost (well some of them did) the Godhead, then Jesus was born. Since there was never an Adam and Eve to eat the fruit and be the first sinnersā¦according to Paul; what was the real need of Jesus? The Torah can pretty much tell you what God wants.
āSinā has never changed on earth. It may go through cycles of up and down, but nothing has ever stopped it.
Man Iām tiredā¦more later.
Peace
twom
Greetings, TWOM:
Let me get right to it. You wrote:
“I can only reply to this by saying I am not a God, you are not a God, God does not exist either in the sense I think you are talking about, or in the sense the religionists are talking about. I can prove I am not a God; as to the othersā¦not so much.”
I’m not trying to change your mind. I’m aware that we have lived two experiences, and that mine is diametrically opposed to yours. I said from the beginning, you shouldn’t believe.
“Well, you may be able to do that, but Iāll bet you I can find 99 out of 100 who will agree with me and my choices.”
Social conditioning must always be taken into account, but I only need one person to prove my point: things are not inherently beautiful or desirable. Each person makes that determination. My claim is indisputable. One man’s treasure is another man’s junk. Another man’s junk is another man’s treasure.
“I of course donāt know the deeper meanings of this….”
The deeper meaning, you’re dismissing. We’re making it all up. Nothing in our world is real. The meaning of everything is the meaning we give it. Whatever we find in our world, we put it there. That’s why we have leg men, and breast men, and that little curl in your mouth when you smile, men. We’re making it all up. It’s not there. We’re putting it there. Give it some thought.
“By the way I donāt need universal consensus.”
That’s not my point. My point: universal consensus doesn’t exist. Sure, collective thought exists, and that thought regulates us in many ways, but it’s not binding. We can rise above it.
“If in fact I were a God then there would be no problemā¦anywhere.”
You ARE God and the problem persists. We’re ALL God and the problem persists. At the risk of losing you altogether, at another level the problem doesn’t exist at all. We believe that it does, and we get what we believe, individually and collectively. We’re God’s unto ourselves. As we decree, so be it.
That’s why, when you transition, you’ll know this, and the reason why you won’t condemn God, for you’ll know, without cavil, that we were the Gods that allowed it to happen. Obstacles don’t count. We created the obstacles, and they’re only insurmountable, if we allow them to be. We’ve allowed them to be.
“It is a product of its times and mirrors the level of human development existing when it was written.”
Think what you like. You’ll get no quarrel from me. If you feel that the Bible is “lousy,” so be it. If you believe that “the Bible is nothing but the writings of a band of goat herders; it has no signs of an omniscient, omnipotent spiritual being behind it,” you’re welcome to your belief.
I have offered you my explanation for that which you find lacking, and you have rejected it. I have no wish to divest you of any notion you care to hold. My only purpose was to share, to expose you to a voice you have perhaps not heard before. I never believed that I could persuade you to give up your strongly-held beliefs. I’m just not that persuasive.
“There are many, many things that fallout from just the loss of the few things mentioned above.”
Oh, they existed (Adam and Eve, the Flood, the Tower of Babel, Exodus, and the Miracles), and still exists, but just not where you’d expect to find them. They’re beyond your ken, I’m afraid, and that’s the problem. You know the stories only on one level. There are other levels, but those levels elude you. Perhaps in your next life things will clear up a bit.
“Are you a member or follower of the New Church?”
No. The church I belong to you can’t see. I know: that’s esoteric. But I’m an honest person, and am not given to lying or exaggerating. Therefore, I answered you honestly, although I’m aware that I didn’t advance your knowledge one whit.
“If science comes up to religion and says āsuch and such in your Bible is not true and we can prove itā, religion has to defend its turf or lose face, credibility, and authority. Many things that science says about religion cannot be refuted. Whenever science and religion are in disagreementā¦it seems science wins, so the church subtly changes to keep up. Itās been going on for centuries.”
There’s no contest here! I can’t speak for the church, except for the one to which I belong, but I, personally, have nothing to “defend.” Science can “win” all it chooses. I’m neither chagrined, nor threatened. I’m a bigger threat to science than science is to me. I know what science doesn’t, and will take it another millennium to catch up to, if then.
“The prayers of amputees are never answered.”
That demonstration is a step higher. Few are spiritual enough to manifest a lost limb. But know this: only the physical limb is lost. You can’t lose a limb, just as you can’t lose your life. And the body has never been alive. That the body seems to be is a carefully-crafted illusion.
“Sorry I just have to mention thisā¦ The phrase āgo in untoā is used in the Bible to mean fornicating or entering the woman/man sexually.”
Not always:
Ex 9:1
Then the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the Lord God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
Ex 10:1
And the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:
Lev 21:23
Only he shall not go in unto the veil, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the Lord do sanctify them.
Deut 4:21
Furthermore the Lord was angry with me for your sakes, and sware that I should not go over Jordan, and that I should not go in unto that good land, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance:
I don’t believe that Pharaoh is a woman, or that a homosexual thing is going on here. What say you?
ā’The Kingdom of God is near’ thatās exactly what Jesus himself was preaching at the end and lookā¦here we are 2,000 years laterā¦still waiting. I give up waiting, I think the whole thing is bogus.”
Think what you like. Yet, you can’t use what you deny. God is a Spirit. His Kingdom is readily available to those who become more spiritual. As long as you insist on identifying with your human self, your flesh and blood and bone, you cannot access this Kingdom although it’s closer than hands and feet.
Sorry. But that’s the way it is. Flesh and blood can’t inherit the Kingdom, either here or on the otherside. Let me tell you something of which you have little awareness. A part of you is aware, but that part you choose not to connect with.
Do you think that our conversation here is happenstance? Do you think we’re having this conversation by accident, or on a whim? I’m sure you do, but you couldn’t be more wrong. This conversation is preparing you for a tomorrow yet to come. One day you will look back on this dialog and realize why you had it. You’re having the conversation on purpose. There are no accidents. What I’m saying now is not serving you now. It will serve you later. Mark my words!
“I really don’t care in most ways, but there are some things in some peopleās interpretation of Scripture that are very disturbing. A large number of evangelicals want Armageddon to come soon, a small percentage, Iāve heard, are actively promoting/facilitating what they call the End Times. Some are actively promoting replacing secular government with fundamentalist church rule.”
Then, if you choose, attack them. You will never change their minds, just as I haven’t changed your mind. If you find their fundamental beliefs to be a threat, petition the government to put safeguards in place to preserve your individual freedoms. Attacking their belief system may bring you some level of satisfaction, but in the end, you’re talking to the wrong people here (they’re just not that maniacal), and, by talking to the fundamentalist, you’ll only succeed in hardening their resolve and their position.
What you resists, persists!
“Well humans were living all over the earth for about 200,000 years or so before God choose to show himself to some goat herders around 2000 to 1500 BCE. The literal millions and millions of other inhabitants of earth were left out because Godā¦I guessā¦was shy or something. The Jewish line of people never lost (well some of them did) the Godhead, then Jesus was born. Since there was never an Adam and Eve to eat the fruit and be the first sinnersā¦according to Paul; what was the real need of Jesus? The Torah can pretty much tell you what God wants.”
There’s much you take for granted. Physical man has been around for eons. God as man not so long. The physical body is not your home. Man, at one time, was no more than any other animal you see roaming the planet. We Gods created all you see. God the Father created us (not a creation actually, but a dividing of Herself, an individuating of His divine, infinite Spirit), and we created everything else.
We the Gods created all you see, including Man. God created us, and we created Adam and Eve. What you have in Genesis are two creations, not one. That’s where all the confusion comes in. We look at the two creations as though they’re one. Not so. The first creation brought forth the Gods (the act of Elohim), the second creation brought forth God/Man, and is attributed to Lord God (Jehovah or YHWH).
The two books are a muddled account of these two creations, and, in some instances, an overlapping occurs. Don’t blame the book, blame those who transcribed the book, attempting to remove the ambiguity.
Our physical bodies are actually the vehicles of the Gods. They allow us to enter into and partake of this physical realm. Without a physical body, it’s virtually impossible to do so. We have not always reincarnated inside these physical bodies, but was content to enter and leave them at will, just as we did other animals, to experience what they experienced.
We were not the first inhabitants of Earth. Those who came before us have since moved on. As Gods, we haven’t been trapped inside these bodies that long. Although Man has been around for what appears to be forever, God/Man hasn’t. Hence, the confusion that perplexes Western religion, believing that Man is God/Man. He’s not.
No one is left out. All return to the Godhead. And they can do it anytime they choose. By the way, so can you (and you don’t have to kill yourself, or die, to do it).
“[W]hat was the real need of Jesus?”
Simple. He came to remind us of who we are. He came to remind us that we’re Gods. When you’re a God (with free will), it’s not that easy to do so. You see what a hard time I’m having convincing you? As God, you create your own reality, and what you decree as true, becomes your truth. That’s the way of Gods.
That we’re beings subject to a physical body and a material world is one gigantic illusion. A good one, to be sure, but still an illusion.
Jesus’ mission was to show us who we are and who we can be. Hence the miracles, and his dominion over materiality. Did he not say:
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
ā’Sin’ has never changed on earth. It may go through cycles of up and down, but nothing has ever stopped it.
“Man Iām tiredā¦more later.
“Peace”
twom
Don’t sweat it! It all comes out all right in the end. On Deacon Blues’ latest blog entry, I discuss “sin,” and what constitutes sin. Give it a gander. And just for the record, God wants or need nothing. He can desire, but a wanting implies a not having. There’s nothing he can’t have. He is everything. And since you’re God, there’s nothing you need or want. You may desire a thing, but as long as the desire stays in the realm of desire, you will continue to need and want.
Hence, Jesus’ admonition: “What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.” If you don’t believe you have that which you desire, you won’t get it. Remember you’re a God unto yourself. Your word is law. Your decree is all mighty.
We humans aren’t good at receiving that which we can’t see, or believe we can’t have, unless certain conditions prevail. Be a receiver, and not just a desirer.
I said: “You are relentless in your efforts. And I believe that were your eyes opened to the reality of God and His Christ, you would be one staunch supporter of the very book you now persecute.
“Therefore, I will pray that God opens your eyes to His spiritual universe and to His spiritual reality. I canāt assure you that my prayers will yield fruit, but know that they carry quite a punch.
“Now, if you would that I not do this, you have only to ask.”
Since you didn’t forbid me, I’ll assume that you’re not in opposition. I warn you: I’m pretty good at this sort of thing.
I bow to the God within you,
LightWorker